Wednesday, August 29, 2007

Women

a Jesus thought...
And if anyone hears my words My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47)

a Godly thought...
The church has sought to guide the spiritual lives of its members in very practical, reasonable ways. That sounds like a compliment. It's not. Contrary to Western thought, spirituality is anything but reasonable and practical. (Jeff Woods, p95 Frost & Hirsch)

a leading thought...
You can tell the quality of a leader by the quality of the followers, not just the quantity. (p30 Court)

a Dave thought...
Yesterday I made a visit to the Heritage Centre and had some great conversations with Historian Lindsay Cox. One of the statements he made about the early Army in Australia was that when we had 365 corps operating around 1894 of them 250 were officered by women, with many 17, 18, 19 year old sigle females in charge of corps. Over 100 years later it seems we now have about 340 corps across the 2 territories and my guess would be close to 50 would be solely led by women. Women in leadership is something we must encourage once again if the Salvos is to reach its potential. So is it that we were the only movement that encouraged women in the late 1800's so the best female leaders signed up? Or perhaps like Lindsay suggests it was deliberate and strategic as the women preachers always attracted the biggest crowds to hear the gospel. I'm sure if Jennifer Hawkins was preaching this Sunday I could get a lot of my mates to the open-air.

Just a thought.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

You just lost all credibiility by that last sentence. Come on Dave
dont sell us short.

GB

Anonymous said...

GB,
I think you are being a bit hard on Dave, after all it was Lindsay who made the statement about women.
Limo

armybarmy said...

Who IS Jennifer Hawkins?
grace
sec

Anonymous said...

Limo

Women should be respected for our talent and abilities not by bodies. Come on guys this type of stuff is not helpful in the cause for equality for women. Women preachers in the early SA attracted crowds becasue they were unique in a male dominated profession - they were also good preachers.

The comment was good but the last sentence undid all the good thoughts....


GB

Anonymous said...

Oh Dear Dave

That is not cool.

Sharyn

Anonymous said...

Dave

For The Salvation Army to attract and keep women leaders there needs to be some significant changes to what is an extremely male dominated organisation and culture.

Women want to be treated as equals! Women want to be respected for their abilitites and the unique contibution they make!

Comments such as those contained in your last sentence are certainly NOT helpful!

Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

It is extremely disappointing that someone who holds such a senior position within our organisation could belittle women in such a way.

There are many gifted and talented women within who have much to offer.

Janeene

jan said...

oh please everyone lighten up.......Dave, I couldn't agree more!! Jen Hawkins IS the face of the company I work for, she would certainly pull a crowd!! You should have seen our office when she was due to make an appearance, we found employees I didn't know existed! How proud I feel when other denominations are still in dispute over women leaders. The only thing that holds back people as leaders whether it is men or women, is the devil himself!!!

Anonymous said...

Is there any wonder there are very few women leaders in The Salvation Army when attitudes like Lt. Dave's prevail in the 'Boys Club'!!!

Anonymous said...

I understand everyone's points but seriously guys - the last line was just a bit of a joke - if you knew Dave that's what you would have taken it for... so lighten up and have a laugh ...
From Cate (a feminist woman in ministry)

Anonymous said...

Many true attitudes and thoughts are expressed in jest!!!

Anonymous said...

Its not a very funny joke. It maybe helpful to remember what you represent.... and how many younger males look up to you.

CT

Anonymous said...

Feminists excuses Kevin Rudd's visit to a 'club' because it was a one-off visit and we all make mistakes! Feminist women in ministry excuses Lt. Dave's comment becasue it was just a bit of a joke!

What next?

Anonymous said...

What, Jennifer Hawkins is turning up to preach this Sunday! Where I'll turn up to listen.

Go Army

Anonymous said...

No, Dave is on the money with the Hawkins approach; "Flirt to Convert" was an Army slogan long before "Go for Souls, Go for the worst!"

Get a grip folks...

With Holy Discontent said...

"...I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." 1 Cor. 9.

WB did lots of diversified approches to attract people to a village square so as to bring a Word of Salvation to them. Thanks Dave for your thought, keep be true to your own thoughts.

BCA

Anonymous said...

mate I know if Jennifer Hawkins was preaching this Sunday morning I would not be there due to the committment I have at my own church. Now if she was preaching Saturday night that would be different. More importantly do you have the names and addresses of the 50 single female officers?
frij

Anonymous said...

Well, how ashamed I am to be counted amongst the ranks of the ofifcers within the salvation army with type of sexist views of women.

Come on guys remember who you are and what you stand for.

Anonymous said...

Lust is a sin. I cannot believe that you guys think this is OK.
It really makes my heart feel very sad. It certainly makes me question the authenticity of your organisation. I certainly will view the Red Shield in a very different light when I see it now.

JD

Anonymous said...

No one is defending lust JD. bit of a jump there. besides I'd rather you didn't judge part of the bride based on some ill advised internet nonsense. I ask for grace for the army on it's behalf JD. can you extend that?

JDK said...

Wow Dave - you really found a way to distract people from the Spong controversy of last week! Nicely done ;-)

Anonymous said...

A few interesting observations here:

1. Prior to the 'throw away' line about J Hawkins, Dave was simply asking 2 questions looking at totally different reasons as to why women may have been in early SA ministry. That is NOT a positional statement, it's a question posed to us, the audience.

2. Putting aside the preaching aspect, there is no doubt that timbrel brigades were used to attract crowds. Rightly or wrongly, open air meetings attracted people through brass bands and women playing timbrels. I'm not saying it is right or wrong (just like Dave didn't) but there you have it...

3. I have discovered some amazingly uptight people read this blog, freak out at the slightest statement they don't like, cannot take anything as a joke, and appear to have the impression that underneath all men really are terrible, and this joke line just helps prove what we all knew all along...

*sigh*

It's a shame the question here that Dave posed is being completely overlooked. It's a good question. Sometimes motives aren't always spiritual. So what do we think about the question here???

N Young

Anonymous said...

you're on the money nath.
gotta reach 'em (without compromising of coarse